Oh, Dang Snap! « Per Christum

Oh, Dang Snap!

Of course it is worth remembering, one can always turn around and go UP the steps too.

This entry was posted on February 21, 2008 at 10:53 pm and is filed under Morality and Moral Issues. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

52 Responses to “Oh, Dang Snap!”

Tito Says:
February 22, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Looks like what’s happening over at the Vox Nova blog.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 22, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Yea, Tito, I am not sure about what Vox Nova is doing.

RadicalCatholicMom wrote a particularly annoying post about a week ago where she urged readers to read the rant of an anrgy adoptee at another blog… And then RadicalCatholicMom conluded “…the more I read, the more I realize how we have been sincerely brainwashed as a country to the value of taking away someone’s child to give to complete strangers. I have been receiving non-stop email from my personal blog since I started and I am being educated. All I can [sic] is I went from pro-adoption (as in we were thinking of adopting) to be very very skeptical.”

Say huh?

As an adopted-American (I deserve to get in on some hyphenated action too, dammit!) I am befuddled. I really am very curious as to what she is meaning or what she is proposing to her readership when it comes to reconsidering adoption.

My parents were on a multi-year waiting list. Dare I suggest it that we as a nation have NOT been sincerely brainwashed into thinking that adoption is great?

I have been kicking around the idea of a counter-post here at PC. Frankly, adoption is so greatly UNconsidered, I was driven to foul language (fouler than usual - and that is pretty bad, God forgive me!) when I read words that seem so inept and ill-considered.
David Zampino Says:
February 22, 2008 at 7:23 pm
RadicalCatholicMom is just plain wrong here. My sister is adopted; my parents tried to adopt another some years later. One of my dearest friends and his wife have adopted 8 children, several of whom had been deeply abused, and have given these precious children new life, a stable home, and most importantly, a great deal of love.

Are there bad adoptions? Sure. Anything good can be done badly. But to take her attitude? I just don’t think so.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 22, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Agreed. Flipping your question on its head “Are their bad biological parents?” Well, I leave you gentle readers to answer that.

I have watched mothers who opt to keep their infants and raise them struggle, and their pro-life position that lead to their having a birth is laudible.

But nothing RCM wrote in the post and com-box at VN sways this grateful infant adoptee of the benifits and glories of adoption.

Saint Joseph understood that very well.
Fr. J. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Tito, thanks to you, I have gotten myself in deep over there at Vox Nova today. What a mess.

They are very busy over there trying to impress upon the world that the suffering of Christ is not the point.

Yipes.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 22, 2008 at 8:56 pm
VN is about to be taken off my RSS feed at my Google aggregator… There were some posts I truly liked that were thoughtful over there… Some of what I see is just bothersome and problematic.

The “reconsidering adoption” comments with the knowing sympathies of RCM is proving to be the icing on the cake.

Don’t waste too much energy on the combox - no one may be reading them anyway. Father J, I would welcome a little blog war between PC & VN… Feel free to write up some things on here. Might give our readership a boost and goose our technorati rating at that.

Besides, we all know obscure beati and orthodoxy is more fun to read about anyway.

And I post much cooler youtube clips.
Rob Says:
February 22, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Having only recently weaned myself off of rad-trad sites, I am now being repelled by a new awareness of another form of Catholicism - it isn’t liturgical-dancing catholicism (small ‘c’ intentional), they are more orthodox. I am not sure how to class it. I wouldn’t call Vox Nova ‘liberal’, not in the sense I use it. Is it a touch of Protestantism? Modernism? I am not sure.

I can say that I have found Per Christum to be much cozier and warmly Catholic place to be!

(There are, however, far too many Ohioans for this Michigan-born Wolverines fan. Go Blue!)
Rob Says:
February 22, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Changed my mind. I just stepped into Vox Nova. Definitely Liberal.

But I still can’t put my finger on something else that bothers me there…
Fr. J. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 10:14 pm
OK, I gave some blood over at VN today. Not entirely proud of it, but there it is.

I have not read through the site much beyond the black hole of that one post, so I am reserving judgment.

These are well educated, liberal ph.d. types who are so above it all, they refuse to see themselves as liberal. So, whatever.

You can see why it is a challenge to hire faithful, responsible Catholic faculties.
Fr. J. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 10:18 pm
SS.

To disparage adoption as some kind of social ill is a high crime in my estimation.

Sounds like a disguise for a pro-abortionist to me.

Go for it, SS. I’ll be your wingman!!
David B. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I am not a huge fan of everything I have seen at Vox Nova, but I am not interested in getting in a “war” with another blog. I don’t have a problem with seriously addressing issues that come up on other blogs, but I also want to be more charitable than what sometimes flies on the Catholic blogosphere.
Rob Says:
February 22, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Fr J. didn’t just ‘give’ blood, he ‘drew’ blood! Hoo-ah!
David B. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Now, having said I am not interested in a “war” with Vox Nova (or singling out any other particular blog), I do think there are posts on Vox Nova that should be challenged, and I think this is certainly a good place to do it. I wasn’t trying to suggest that PC shouldn’t take some of this on.
David B. Says:
February 22, 2008 at 11:58 pm
According to whois, it looks to me like Vox Nova is owned by the Catholic woman who helped run the old Evangelical Catholicism blog, which I always thought was pretty conservative (I thought she, or her husband, or both, were Steubenville grads). What happened?

Is Vox Nova orthodox, but simply on the *politically* liberal side of it, i.e. believing the government should act as regulator to carry out social reforms, etc? Mind you, I am politically rather conservative, and am asking this out of curiosity, because I haven’t read as much of the blog as many of you have.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 12:32 am
I have been generosity-challenged today. Must repent.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 12:57 am
Off topic. SS, I noticed you over at Fr. Longnecker’s on Brideshead Revisited.

In the past wk I have finished the miniseries and most of the novel. I am smitten by this thing. Can’t shake it.

Since the movie version is coming out this year, perhaps we could do our own series on the book. If you or others are interested, it could be added to that thousand items you really should be getting to… ;-)
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 1:16 am
Ah David B… It’s like Clemenza points out in The Godfather “This thing’s gotta happen every five years or so…every ten years–helps to get rid of the bad blood!”

I will leave the real guns and ammo in the night stand.

In all seriousness, I am more proposing measured responses be posted here. Why waste them in the com box over there?

Father J - just went through your exchange over there. You got a good set on you, reminds me of our glory days at ByzCath before the anti-montaine couldn’t take the heat any longer. Atta Father!
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 1:28 am
Father, is this your first time reading BR?

I must have read and re-read it 4-5 times now… It honestly just gets better every single time!

I hadn’t heard about a movie… I had avoided the mini-series for a good long time on the grounds I didn’t think it could ever live up to the book. At Father L’s urging, I am reconsidering… but a movie? I don’t know… going back into skeptical mode.

Am I alone in thinking “The Black Cordelias” would make a sweet band name?
Radical Catholic Mom Says:
February 23, 2008 at 1:55 am
Dear A Simple Sinner: I recommend you The Girls Who Went Away and the book review I wrote about it. It is from the perspective of the women in pre-Roe years who were forced to give their babies away. Once I posted on that, I was inundated by adoptees, surrendering mothers and adoptive parents telling me very similar stories.

I recommend you hear and read Ann Fessler’s well researched book and hear how over a million children were taken from their parents by force before you dismiss my post from an adoptee. This book radically helped me understand how the whole pro-abortion movement came to be and how so many surrendering mothers became the fighting force for abortion “rights.”

Fr. J, I especially encourage you to read the first well written, historically accurate book because you are a priest. The Church’s role in the whole thing is quite sad.

For you all to talk about VN as being not Catholic is outrageous. Because I say we need to rethink the whole adoption industry? Because I wonder about the pro-life movement’s insistence on “adoption not abortion” as the way to solve the abortion crisis in this country? Because I think we need to understand how on earth the contraception and abortion laws were changed and what happened in the “good old days”?

Because many of our contributors are against wars that even the Vatican are against?

Because most quote from encyclicals and question the American way of doing things?

Really, give examples of anti-Catholic statements to justify your claims.
David B: Katerina and Michael are not married. I am a University of Dallas graduate (an Orthodox University despite the whole scandalous incident of Our Lady)Michael is from Stuebenville and everyone else for the most part is Catholic educated.

I came over to Per Christum because I am a fan of Antonia’s and she is a fan of mine. Little could I know that this blog is more interested in what is “liberal” or “conservative” and not on what is Catholic which when you read and live you will discover is BOTH RADICALLY LIBERAL AND RADICALLY CONSERVATIVE AND SO MUCH MORE than any political label.

You gentlemen can do better than this. At least I hope.

And A Simple Sinner, I would be MORE than happy to hear your perspective of your adoption experience if you wrote it. Until then, we will only hear from the millions of people who have SERIOUS and LEGITIMATE concerns about it.
Anonymous Says:
February 23, 2008 at 2:05 am
The Blackadder Says:

Well, this Vox Nova contributor hopes that Father J will visit our blog now and again. I appreciated his contributions to the discussion today.

Please, though, no wars. We at Vox Nova are a peace-loving bunch. :)
David Zampino Says:
February 23, 2008 at 2:42 am
To RadicalCatholicMom,

The fact that your “correspondents” might say similar things does not mean a lot. Perhaps it says more about your correspondents, than it does about the actual facts of the matter.

I recollect the story of the New York City Journalist who could not possibly understand why Nixon had won the election since “nobody I no voted for Nixon”.

Again, echoing what I wrote before, and what Simple Sinner endorsed, there are, no doubt, bad adoption situations — no question about it! But that has nothing to do with the essential point about the need for kind, loving, giving, adoptive parents, when such a situation becomes necessary.
David B. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 2:42 am
Radical Catholic Mom,

I agree with you about Catholicism being both radically conservative and liberal, and really above modern American political distinctions. I admit I tend to see things more conservatively, and when I teach social justice to my students I emphasize that there are solutions to many of these issues that involve government intervention, and others that do not, and the most effective are somewhere in between.

Speaking for myself, I don’t think VN is non-Catholic or heretical. Politically, I notice that I differ with some of the VN contributors on gun control, but this is an area I think Catholics can certainly disagree on (so long as we agree taking innocent life is wrong).

Please return to this blog, and understand that if we reply to posts made on VN it is not done in the spirit of condemnation, but I hope, fruitful dialogue with fellow Catholics.

By the way, I enjoyed the Evangelical Catholicism blog, and didn’t know that there was a connection with Vox Nova until today.
David B. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 3:04 am
I should note that in my last post when I said I didn’t find anything at VN that was non-Catholic or heretical, I haven’t read the whole site, so please go easy on me if you have evidence otherwise. Of course, it seems that like us, VN is striving to be loyal to the Magisterium.

I think perhaps a good post on PC about magisterial teaching on Catholic Social Teaching would be good. Fr J perhaps? I am taking a Social Teaching course this spring for my post-Master’s certificate, but alas I am not there yet!

I honestly would like to get some good discussion going about it. Unfortunately, the social justice I encountered in grad school was simply dressed up Marxism and do-goodism, championed by white liberals who wouldn’t have hung out with a poor person if their lives depended on it, who assumed, from their nice houses in good areas of town, that they knew what was best for poor folks. I know that this isn’t Catholic Social Justice, but that is what I was exposed to for the longest time! And you’ll have to excuse those of us from middle-class/working-class backgrounds who sometimes get a little suspicious when elites tell us what is good for us, etc (not that I am suggesting anybody here is doing that…but as someone who grew up middle-class [back when our country had a solid middle class] I often got offended by my fellow grad students who, pontificating from the wealth and comfort of trust funds, spoke of how they knew what was good for the poor).
Radical Catholic Mom Says:
February 23, 2008 at 3:05 am
Fr J: “To disparage adoption as some kind of social ill is a high crime in my estimation.”

Uh yeah. Except most other Catholic cultures do NOT reject their babies and give them away to complete strangers. The only time you see such a thing is when the mother is so impoverished she has no other choice but to give her child away. To me it seems as if it would be more just to NOT adopt the child and take the mom’s child away, but rather to help sponsor the mom and her family like the many aid organizations offer for children. My hubby & I sponsor a family right now.

How is it a GOOD thing to have a mother lose her child, Father? Really, adoption IS the great social experiment. Does it sometimes work itself out for the good? Absolutely! Especially for foster children who have no stability. But coercing a woman to adopt (through the promise of indefinite poverty by being a single mother), like coercing a woman to abort in my opinion is outrageous and NOT pro-life or pro-parenthood. Feminists for Life (of which I belong) is one of the FEW pro-life organizations who is working to rectify the societal pressures that force women apart from their babies.

Like I said, read the book and read the other book The Magadelen Sisters about the Irish Adoption Industry run by the Church. Those stories are even worse than what happened in the Pre-Roe years in America. The Houses in Ireland were STILL running into the 1990s! This is not some fantasy. It is real.

For me, like I have said, my questioning began when a pro-life friend, an adoptee, told me what she had gone through and her search for her birth parents. They gave her up because they couldn’t provide for her. Then I served missions in desperately poor countries and saw that even when poor, those families would NEVER send their babies away unless for extreme circumstances (we are NOW discovering many of these foreign adoptions the babies HAVE BEEN TAKEN from their mothers’ without consent!).

Only in a consumeristic society would we think that the more stuff a couple has the better the parents they are. And only in an individualistic society would we say “yeah, you have your kid, you are on your own! Good luck!”
I have worked with students from all parts of the world over as an ESL instructor and you DON’T hear about adoption. Only in very secular Western Europe and America can you buy a baby.
Radical Catholic Mom Says:
February 23, 2008 at 3:20 am
David, are you aware that in psychiatric circles there are whole terms devoted to the massive amount of people who were having serious problems with the whole adoption situation? “Triads” google triads and find out statistically that those who have serious issues many times are adoptees, surrendering mothers, or the adoptive parents. The numbers were so significant that society began to rethink how adoptions were done. Now the latest social experiment is the open adoption. The LA Times ran an investigative report on that and it is having questionable outcomes. You go to Latin America or Africa or other Catholic countries and you will NEVER see the adoption industry.

I too, have studied quite extensively at UD the Catholic Social Teaching and moral theology. And sadly, unlike those people you met in your courses, most of the people in my courses went off to missionary work afterwards. We were all serving in Central/South American and Africa at the same time.

As for VN contributors, these people are legit and they live the life to the best of their abilities.

And to lump us all together? Good luck. We passionately disagree with each other as anybody else does, but really, try and engage the argument and the contributor and not lump everyone as a whole.

And Rob saying there is a “touch of Protestantism!” For real? Cite your source please! Where? How is a post not in line with Church teaching?

I understand, though, if you don’t like your assumptions questioned how uncomfortable that can be.
David B. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 3:21 am
Only in a consumeristic society would we think that the more stuff a couple has the better the parents they are.

RCM,

I basically agree, although I think a lot of women are pressured to give up a baby because they do not feel they are mature enough or responsible enough, and because it is very possible the dad is nowhere to be found and her parents aren’t either (if her dad was ever around). Yeah, society is screwed up, and the sooner we get the family unit fixed, and learn that it isn’t the “stuff” that matters, but virtue, the better for women actually keeping their babies. Also, men need to get it together and start being fathers. I am guessing that in other countries it is the family unit and perhaps the local community that helps raise a child when the mother lacks resources. That doesn’t work as well in a society like ours in which the family unit is breaking down, men are not taking responsibility for their actions, and “communities” are rows of condos where nobody knows their neighbors.

I do think the Church should help mothers who need it, and are willing to work to keep their babies (and I commend you and your husband for sponsoring one). Now, by work, I don’t necessarily mean labor, but rather, giving up certain “extras” like cable TV, eating out all the time, etc, in order to raise a baby, things I have voluntarily given up as we prepare to have a child. Of course, being so materialist, our society likes handouts, but doesn’t always do the sacrifice well. At any rate, I agree that if we with sufficient resources helped, and if the mother (and fathers) involved were willing to sacrifice to afford a baby, we wouldn’t have nearly as many adoptions.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 3:43 am
SS. BR, the miniseries, is the most faithful rendition of any book set to the screen. Viewing it will be a treat for you. I have found only a couple words changed, and I bet you don’t find them!!

RCM. I, too, once considered myself a radical and found every manner of thing to be angry about.

I am not adopted myself, but am old enough to know plenty my age who were. The family across the street, and very good friend in college, and even the child of the Bolivian family I stayed with while in language school.

None of my friends have regretted for a moment being adopted. My college friend looked up his birth mother and found a Catholic woman more committed to alcohol than her child. His only regret was looking into the dark chapter which had not needed to be opened, save for his curiosity and the proddings of many who urged him on including the media which never reports a sad reunion.

The family I grew up with did not reveal that their daughter was adopted as that is considered poor form. Only after long discussions of social ills and the needs of the children I was visiting at the orphanage daily, did they reluctantly disclose this fact about their youngest daughter. Perhaps this is why you have so little awareness of adoption beyond the “wealthy West.” Orphanages and adoption are commonplace the world round, which I can say as a member of a Congregation that operates them on a couple of continents.

To cast aspersions on the care given by the Church and religious communities such as my own based on some horrible things that happened in Ireland is to lack all sense of the subject.

In the parish where I now assist, there are several elderly members who were raised in an old orphanage, long closed by the abortion holocaust. I have only assisted there over the past year, but they have not ceased to tell me how they owe everything to those wonderful sisters who loved them and raised them almost as their own.

I trust that these women are not lying as the Church remains the center of their lives and they radiate a joy in the faith I have seldom seen elsewhere.

I dont know who your countless thousands are who would have rather had some other life than they did, or perhaps no life, but I have never met one.

I would not put it past the pro-abortionists to stop at nothing to cast aspersions on adoption so as to line their coffers with the blood money of the innocents.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:02 am
Walk to the corner store to get a six pack (I believe in drinking at home on Friday nights, and “earning my beer” by walking to get it) and this is what I come back to?

I need to post more cartoons.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:07 am
And I need one of your beers.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:13 am
And I believe somehow it was one of your cartoon posts that has gotten us here.

College (Freshman year) Red, White and Blue and Natty Lite
College (Senior Year): Beck’s Dark and Sam Adams
Seminary: Sierra Nevada and Negra Modelo

Now: Anything, but I’m enjoying a basic Michelob.

So what did you get us, SS?

Cheers!
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:17 am
Miller lite.

I am watching my figure.
Rob Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:30 am
Busted!
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 4:48 am
Rob,

My word exactly! How did this happen? But it is perhaps Providential that it has.

For the record, I blame Tito–and you, of course, Rob. ;-)

Another BR episode and a toast to the black Cordelias and the sacred monkeys in the Vatican!!
Rob Says:
February 23, 2008 at 5:14 am
-So what did you get us, SS?-

Heineken, of course. He loves the stuff. :-)
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 5:23 am
“Well, this Vox Nova contributor hopes that Father J will visit our blog now and again. I appreciated his contributions to the discussion today.

Please, though, no wars. We at Vox Nova are a peace-loving bunch. :)
“

The Greek Catholic is the one calling for the war… He can’t be blamed, he grew up with it. Those people love a good fight.

The rest of the contributorship is a docile and affable peace-loving group.

Heinekin Rob? Heinekin?

Is outrage!
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 7:01 am
So we are all agreed, “The Black Cordelias” would make a sweet band name?
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 7:21 am
Yes, the Black Cordelias, a great band–I can hear them now.

I still also like sacred monkeys, too.

While on topic, I am discovering that there are in the series minor abbreviations from the book. But the lavishness of the production and the incomparable acting, pacing and score make the series a work of art in its own right while being faithful to the book almost entirely.

I cant wait til you see it. I just read Julia and Charles at the fountain after Bridey drops the bomb.

“They know all about it…they’ve got it in black and white. They bought it for a penny at the church door…”

Simply stunning…
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 7:54 am
Meanwhile over at NV they are deciding that an image of the Blessed Mother dressed as a stripper is really no big deal and that Catholics should just get over it and that we should use this opportunity to talk about just war theory…or something.

I’m getting closer to the Greek Catholic on this one.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 23, 2008 at 8:09 am
Being Built!
Look Forward To The Ides Of March!
Mother Angelica’s Sisters Go (Back) To France!
What A Fine Looking Pope You Have There.
A personal reflection — about a dear friend
Who Was ‘Theophilus’ In Luke And Acts?
Franciscans & U2 - What More Could You Want?
Oh, Dang Snap!
US Catholic University Approves Gay Straight Partn…
Planned Parenthood Kills For Profit
Mike Liccione On Archbishop Of Canterbury
Stuff White People Like
Sperm Cells Created From Female Embryo
February 20: Blessed Blessed Jacinta & Francisco M…
40 Years Ago Today - Mister Rogers
Com Box Hero: Father Serge Keleher On Kosovo
Friendly Mormon Missionaries
Those Chaldeans!
It Would Be An Honor Just To Be Nominated
Dr. Francis Beckworth Notre Dame Bound, 2008-09!

RCM,

Slow down and take a good deep breath. Listed above are the last 20 entries for PC. As luck would have it, it has been a slow week, I wrote 19 of them. (The one I didn’t write is a post in memoriam.) But if you could point out which of those posts give you the idea that leads you to say ” Little could I know that this blog is more interested in what is “liberal” or “conservative” and not on what is Catholic which when you read and live you will discover is BOTH RADICALLY LIBERAL AND RADICALLY CONSERVATIVE AND SO MUCH MORE than any political label.” I would appreciate it - I will go back and reconsider what I wrote, if that is the impression the simple work of this simple sinner gives you.

I make an effort to think with the heart of the Church, to be sure that puts me in some fairly conservative waters more often than not. But if you could show where it is I have written anything that leads you to think I am more concerned about what is ‘”liberal” or “conservative” and not on what is Catholic’ I want to be brought up to speed.

As far as what goes on in the combox - you are as veteran a blogger as any of us (the media being new enough anyone in it for over a year can claim such distinction). By now you know that what goes on in the combox and off the cuff shows a lot of variation in mileage and opinion. I hope you have read more than the comments in the combox of a post I did on a cartoon before making a stirring indictment about what we write about here or what our combox participants are all about.

I am working on a response to your post and comments here, I want to be thoughtful and cogent in my reply. It will take a day or two.

I will try to get around to your book about adoptions gone bad… In the mean time, I am just going by the actual life experience of my sister and I - both infant adoptions. Anecdotal to be sure, and not as moving as a book to some, but it simply is what it is: me.

Father J writes: “My college friend looked up his birth mother and found a Catholic woman more committed to alcohol than her child.”

One could do worse… When life hands you lemons… Well, I certainly do like bourbon.

Shame on me.
Fr. J. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 8:35 am
SS,

Glad you are taking on RCM who despite having no personal experience of the matter has taken it upon herself to smear the works of centuries of good religious and ignore the overwhelming evidence of the good that has come from adoption.

It is hard for such charges to not become personal for this religious or for yourself as one who was adopted. One is left to wonder what life, or no life, she would have preferred for you. Lucky you, it wasn’t up to her. For if adoption had been discredited there would have been few other options for countless many.

SS,

If there is time, I am thinking of making a pilgrimage to Carey before Holy Week comes. Is that far from you?
David B. Says:
February 23, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Fr J,
Carey is about 20 minutes away from me. I am assuming it is pretty close to SS too. I have been wanting to get up there, but have been too busy. If you are coming, please let me know!
Michael J. Iafrate Says:
February 23, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Meanwhile over at NV they are deciding that an image of the Blessed Mother dressed as a stripper is really no big deal and that Catholics should just get over it and that we should use this opportunity to talk about just war theory…or something.

Actually, Father, I seem to be standing alone on the position I have taken. And that’s fine. We’re a diverse group. Don’t be dishonest and say that “they” (all VN contributors) think the episode is “no big deal.”
Morning's Minion Says:
February 23, 2008 at 11:45 pm
I wrote the following on the VN thread in response to Fr. J’ misrepresentation over here.

—————-
I see on another site (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=20487926&postID=905375253375925910) that Fr. J is complaining that we (he means me, not the Vox Nova borg collective) is busy “trying to impress upon the world that the suffering of Christ is not the point.”

Also he says that we are “well educated, liberal ph.d. types who are so above it all, they refuse to see themselves as liberal”.

Frankly, I’m disappointed that he would write this nonsense behind out backs. At least have courage to say so here.

Let me address the second point, the easier point. As I’m tired of pointing out, like so many others wearing the blinkers of the American political systrem, he simply does not know what “liberal” means in this context.

“Liberalism” is an Enlightenment-era anthropology predicated on the notion of individual liberty as the foundation of society. Society is reduced to a mere social contract between individuals and private liberty always supplants the common good. The common good steps away from obeying God’s law toward satisfying self-interest. Now, this is not all bad. It led us to refine our notions of personhood and inherent human dignity. But it can also lead to ideas like unfettered free markets, abortion, and marriage as the fulfilment of individual wants and desires rather than the bearing and rearing of children. Like it or not, the US is a child of the Enlighenment, and the pathetic “culture war” language of “conservative versus liberal” is merely a fight between siblings. It has no place in Catholic discourse. Those who call themselves “conservative” when they glorify the nation state and the individualism of the free market are in truth no such thing. And we don’t need a Ph.D to figure this out, Fr. J.

On the the more substantive point, which is simply and obviously wrong. This post does not argue that the suffering of Christ is not the point. On the contrary, Christ’s suffering is a direct result of humanity’s sinfulness. He was tortured and subjected to judicial murder as a result of our sins. But by his great mercy, he overcame sin, and bridged the gap between humanity and the divine. The point of this post is to argue that pain is not good. It is not virtuous. Pain is bad, and that is exactly the point.

As for the virtue of suffering with Christ, let me quote Pope Benedict in his latest encylical:

“Hence in all human suffering we are joined by one who experiences and carries that suffering with us; hence con-solatio is present in all suffering, the consolation of God’s compassionate love—and so the star of hope rises….What does it mean to offer something up? Those who did so were convinced that they could insert these little annoyances into Christ’s great “com-passion” so that they somehow became part of the treasury of compassion so greatly needed by the human race.”

Compassion. Mercy. Forgiveness. That’s what it’s all about.
Michael J. Iafrate Says:
February 24, 2008 at 12:52 am
Also, not that I am interested in one, but what the hell is a “blog war” anyway? Is it related to high school? MySpace? Facebook?
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 24, 2008 at 1:08 am
“MySpace? Facebook?”

Sorry, Michael. I am too old to actually know what those things are.
David B. Says:
February 24, 2008 at 1:10 am
I don’t think this post should continue as a discussion about the merits of Vox Nova. I also think that discussions about particular threads and topics over at Vox Nova should either be taken over there, or else addressed in a post here. It is difficult to follow three+ discussions on this thread.

This thread is getting way too busy and contentious, far beyond the point of the original post.
Rob Says:
February 24, 2008 at 2:01 am
FOOD FIGHT!
Policraticus Says:
February 24, 2008 at 6:49 am
To answer a few of the questions about Vox Nova…

We have little respect for anything Tito writes as it tends to be based on gut reaction rather than on Catholic faith or human reason.

I am sure I am not the only contributor who was horrified by the display at University of Dallas.

Yes, some of us are politically “liberal” according to those who think only in binomials. Others of us are “conservative.” Some still are “radical.” We’re all over the map.

Yes, we are 100% orthodox and compromise no Catholic doctrine.

No, the blog is not “owned” by Katerina of Evangelical Catholicism. It is a group project.

Yes, I went to Steubenville for my theology degree, and I think highly of the program there.

No, none of us at Vox Nova are interested in a “blog war.” Dialogue and discourse, yes.
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 24, 2008 at 6:57 am
You all do, I hope realize, that the call for a “blog war” was merely a euphamism for point counter point on certain issues between certain of our contributors, and certain of yours, right?

Only the Greek Catholic called for it anyway… and honestly, no one takes him very seriously. He has a photograph of one of his 22 pound dogs as his avatar for crying out loud. He’s pretty simple.
Anonymous Says:
February 25, 2008 at 3:39 pm
The Blackadder Says:

A dog as a avatar? That is ridiculous. :)
Rob Says:
February 25, 2008 at 5:20 pm
That’s his avatar?

I thought it was him…

Oh, my wife tells me dogs can’t talk or write.

What about Scooby Doo, though…?
A Simple Sinner Says:
February 25, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Ruh-roh!

Per Christum

Oh, Dang Snap!

52 Responses to “Oh, Dang Snap!”

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