Calvinist or Catholic?
When I was exploring Roman Catholicism, I would tend to only seek witnesses who were like myself…former Evangelicals. Fortunately, I’ve gotten over that. We converts have to be really careful. We tend to bring a lot of theological baggage with us that can unwittingly and innocently put us in the position where we’re spouting heresy.
I was born again in the Protestant sense when I was 7 years old. I’ve studied the faith and the Bible since then, so I thought I had a pretty good handle on what it meant to be a Christian. When I discovered sacraments, liturgy and the saints in the Charismatic Episcopal Church, I guess I thought I would just add them to the mix of what I already knew to be true, and, presto, I’d be a Roman Catholic, ready to teach catechism and theology. In fact, I sometimes resented going through RCIA, because I thought I knew everything. Consequently, I didn’t always do my catechism readings, because I didn’t think I needed it. I KNEW the Bible.
Ha ha. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Recently, this was illustrated to me when I found myself dialoguing with a couple of well-known Calvinists (Steve Camp and James White). I concluded, after reading and hearing what they believed, that, even if I remained a Protestant, I would have never bought into Calvinism. Their idea of total depravity seemed so hopeless and fatalistic.
On the topic of total depravity, Wikipedia states:
The doctrine interprets the Bible as teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
Total depravity is the fallen state of man as a result of original sin . The doctrine of total depravity teaches that people are by nature not inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will.
In reformed theology, God must predestine individuals into salvation since man is incapable of choosing God.
I thought, I don’t completely believe that? But what DO I believe? More importantly, what does the Catholic Church teach on this subject of sin?
What I found is that the Catholic position places us in such a more hopeful and, dare I say, “royal” position. I highly recommend a current teaching, available via podcast, from Mark Shea at Catholic Exchange, called, “Concupiscence, Sin and the Mercy of God.”
He reminds us of the Mel Gibson incident, when Gibson was yelling anti-Semitic slurs while he was smashed off his rocker. Many said, “I THOUGHT he was a good guy. I guess not,” implying that this drunken man was the TRUE self. This, my friends, is classic Calvinism.
Goodness is the mask. Corruption is one’s true nature. When we took the mask off Gibson, and he was allowed to be his uninhibited self, we got the real picture.
But is that the way WE want to be judged? When we are at our worst? I don’t. Surely God doesn’t look at us this way. This view says the sinner is the REAL man. The penitent is just “faking it.” This view identifies sin with nature. And it leaves two choices: 1) nature is sinful and bad (Calvinism’s total depravity) OR 2) sin is natural, i.e. if it feels good, do it (leading to war, promiscuity, and a host of other evils).
Shea summarizes it this way.
For a baptized Christian: Sin is normal, but it is NEVER natural. Sin does not constitute who we are. It destroys who we are. It makes us anonymous. Sin is a BETRAYAL of who we are. It is NOT a revelation of who we are. It is only when the human person takes his place as the redeemed creature God made him to be that we begin to see his face and know his name. As a Christian, we have the assurance that man is a creature who has undergone death and resurrection and now sits at the right hand of the Father. If you want to know what a human being TRULY is, look at him. Those members of his body on earth who are undergoing the process of divinization are still capable of sinning and betraying the truth of who they really are.
Do you see how different a view this is? My sin is not ME.
And why is this? Because in Catholic theology, the sacraments are so important and powerful…and real and effective.
I think when I was in the CEC, before I became Catholic, I thought baptism was sort of a replacement of the “born again” experience. Jesus died for my sins. I accepted him as Saviour, and I was going to heaven. Instead of the sinner’s prayer, my baptism effected this work. I don’t know if that’s what I was TAUGHT, per se, but in reflection, it’s what I believed.
But baptism is MUCH more than that. Baptism REMOVES!!!! original sin. It places me in a fully restored relationship with God. Can you believe that? My true self loves God and wants to be with him. I suffer the effects of sin, and I DO sin, but that’s a betrayal of who I really am.
This idea certainly helped me in my last visit to the confession box. My sin separates me from God, because he is holy. When I receive the sacrament of reconciliation, I am restored again to that right relationship. And that’s the way it felt. I felt like the prodigal who had come home again..where I belonged.
When you think about the ramifications of the removal of original sin, believing the doctrines about Mary (who at the moment of her conception was preserved from original sin by her son, Jesus) aren’t so implausible. Many are offended by her exalted position, but she is actually a witness to what we are all called to. So are the saints. They’re incredible.
But we’re all called to be saints. The only reason we’re not is because we don’t want to be. Yes, concupiscence is a big thing, certainly, but saintlihood is possible.
There’s so much more, but this post is already too long.
Thoughts? Questions? Corrections from those who know better than I?
David Bennett
Jennifer
asimplesinner
Fr. J.
Chad Toney
Jorge Flores
Jonathan B
carmelbennett
nicenehobbit
Jason S
jaybird68
papaz
March 3, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Jaybird:
Interesting post. I have one disagreement with “…putting us truly in a higher position than Adam and Eve before the fall…” My objection is with “higher,” I don’t think that’s right. We still suffer the consequences of Original Sin (death and concupiscence). We do have means of grace available to us that Adam and Eve did not (the Sacraments, etc.) but I don’t know that we’re in a “higher position” than prelapsarian Adam and Eve.
I think that the concept of “total depravity” is one of the reasons that many Protestants have such a hard time with the IC and other Marian things. They can’t seem to wrap their minds around it; and the idea of Mary cooperating in Salvation by her “yes” just fries their synapses. You say you were “dialoguing with” Steve Camp and James White, how did that go? I’m not familiar with Steve Camp but I’ve read and listened to White before. In my experience, dialoguing with Calvinists is like dialoguing with a brick wall. They don’t really seem to listen to what you’re saying but keep hammering on their hobby-horse (excuse the mixed metaphor).
James G
March 3, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Thanks James. I’m not sure about the “higher than Adam and Eve” thing either. Except that now we are truly God’s children, and it is often called Adam’s “happy fault” that led to our redemption.
But really…my main point is that Protestantism and Catholicism have many foundational differences that aren’t always apparent right away.
As for the “dialogue” with these gentlemen…a complete waste of time AND near occasion for sin. Because of their belief in predestination and OSAS, since I rejected Protestantism, there is no other choice but to say that I was never even a Christian. So preposterous, and hurtful.
Thanks for reading.
March 3, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I removed the offending phrase from my post. Thanks for the challenge.
March 3, 2008 at 6:06 pm
I really enjoyed this post - but I too would disagree that we are higher than Adam and Eve were in the Garden.
Before the commission of that first sin, our first parents didn’t need salvation — they were already in right relationship with God (and the Word that was present at Creation). It was only in choosing to disobey that they broke from the relationship.
I like what you say about the Immaculate Conception. That’s a doctrine I have a lot of trouble understanding. Are you saying that at her conception, Mary was sort of baptised by her future son?
The thing I’ve never really understood about Mary was that if she is preserved from Original Sin by the Immaculate Conception, and we have been freed from Original Sin by our baptism, how come we still sin, but she never did?
That might be a bit too much to think about on a Monday morning. :)
March 3, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Meg:
I’m going to take a stab at your question:
The thing I’ve never really understood about Mary was that if she is preserved from Original Sin by the Immaculate Conception, and we have been freed from Original Sin by our baptism, how come we still sin, but she never did?
I believe that what Mary received at the time of her conception was a higher degree of grace than that which we receive at baptism. She would have been the equivalent of Eve — capable of sin, certainly, but not posessing the tendency toward it (concupiscence).
I had always wondered about the scriptures that tell us we must be “holy”. Before I learned about Catholicism and sacramental worship, I thought the Bible was just setting an impossible goal before us.
I doubt that I’ll ever attain Sainthood this side of Purgatory, but it’s nice to know that such holiness is possible.
Pax,
Ruth
March 3, 2008 at 9:20 pm
I am not sure what precisely you all are referring to with the “higher than Adam and Eve before the fall.” But, from a Catholic perspective, I would say of course we are higher than Adam and Eve before the fall. Before the fall the highest state for Adam and Eve was the garden–Earth in a perfected state. But, by virtue of the salvific work of Christ on the cross made accessible through baptism, we now have the hope of heaven, the possibility of perfect communion with God in eternity. That beats Eden any day.
But, of course, baptism only gives us access to grace. It does not destroy our freedom. So, we are free to repeat that errors of the first couple.
March 3, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Father,
We’re referring to a now edited sentence in Jaybird’s post. Lest this thread turn into a big discussion of my nit-picky comment, this will be my last comment on the subject.
I agree that the Beatific Vision trumps the Garden any day. However, we have not attained to that just yet. While baptism removes the stain of Original Sin, all of us are guilty of personal sin. In this life, unless you catch me 30 seconds after leaving the confessional (by 31 seconds I’ve probably sinned again), I would not say that I am “higher than” prelapsarian Adam and Eve who were innocent. I hope that some day I get into Heaven, in which case I will be in a higher state than the Garden, but for now I am a lowly worm crawling in the dust of my own (not total) depravity.
James G
March 4, 2008 at 1:45 am
Jaybird:
Edenic crisis averted, I want to say how much I appreciate you post. I first encountered Calvinistic theology back in the heyday of Christian TV when I lived in the Bible belt in the 80’s. I was surrounded by assured salvation, the born again theology, and the certitude that Catholics were not real Christians. Never bought it and always thought it was kooky. We used to make fun of them in Richmond, Va where the first time you meet someone you would inevitably be asked: Are you saved?
Seems evangelicals these days are morphing pretty fast and dont quite talk as they used to about works righteousness and the dangers of book learnin.
I am in a very Catholic world now, so I havent run into a real Calvinist in years. Are they still going strong?
March 4, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Father J,
From my experience, all Protestants are more influenced by Calvinism than they realize.
As I struggle through my first Lent as a Catholic, I’m really seeing the difference. God really WANTS me to change. God really wants and expects me to take up my cross. There are virtues that only come through grace, but there are also things that I have to just plain work at, even when I don’t feel like it.
I think before I could sort of skate by because I was just “a sinner saved by grace.” I didn’t feel the urgency of my responsibility to become holy.
I talked with another new convert friend, and she’s felt the same thing. This Catholic thing is NOT easy, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything. It’s the real deal.
March 4, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Calvinist site TheAmericanView.com. Please visit, comment. Here’s recent article on the death of Buckley.
William F. Buckley’s ‘Conservative Movement’ Still-Born, Dead-On-Arrival, Decades Ago, Because it Was Godless, Against Christ, Ignored God’s Word
Contact: John Lofton, 301-873-4612, 410-760-8885, JLof@aol.com
MEDIA ADVISORY, March 3 /Christian Newswire/ — Recovering Republican John Lofton, Editor of TheAmericanView.com and co-host of “The American View” radio show with the Constitution Party’s 2004 Presidential candidate Michael Anthony Peroutka, has issued the following statement:
“Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.” – Psalm 127.
The Lord Jesus Christ did not build the “conservative movement” house. Thus, it was a house built on sand, it fell and great has been the fall of it, a recent example of this fall being the “conservative movement’s” support for President of George W. Bush who has given us the most Godless, unconstitutional, debt-ridden, big spending Federal Government in our history.
Even though most of its “leaders” claimed to be Christians, the “conservative movement” was dead-on-arrival because, from the beginning, it’s political plan was Godless, against Christ, and ignored the Bible. This “movement” vainly imagined succeeding without honoring Christ, succeeding through bread-alone, flesh-and-blood-only-politics when God tells us the REAL battle is a spiritual war which must be fought in the full-armor of God (Ephesians 6:10ff).
An example of the Godlessness I allude to occurred when I was on Bill Buckley’s “Firing Line” program June 24, 1987. Referring to him having told Malcolm Muggeridge that he (Buckley) did not believe there was a Christian means of organizing society, I asked Bill: “Wouldn’t God’s Laws, wouldn’t the Laws of Christ be a means of organizing a society?” Buckley said: “No. No….The consent of the governed in societies ruled by the people is the ultimate source of authority.”
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was once asked how just a few Communists could take over his country when it had a thousand years of being Christian? He replied: “We forgot God.” The leaders of the “conservative movement,” politically-speaking, forgot God. They forgot that the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord over ALL, including politics. They forgot that He is King of kings, Lord of lords, with ALL power in Heaven and on earth. They forgot Psalm 2:12 commands: “Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
I know all of what I say here is true because, from the inside, I ran with this “conservative movement” from the mid-1960s to 1980 when God, by His grace alone, raptured me from among this Christless crowd – something for which, literally, I will be eternally grateful.
To hear much more on this subject, please click here to hear the latest “The American View” radio show http://www.theamericanview.com/dictator/media/997/show_145.mp3
If you’d like to interview John Lofton, you may reach him by calling: 301-873-4612; 410-760-8885; or by email: JLof@aol.com.
March 4, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Thank you for a great post. As a convert, it has taken me years to shed the elements of my Calvinist heart, and the greatest reason was seeing how it affected the way I raised my children. It’s an entirely different approach to catechesis and family living, and I notice that in my family of origin, there is a constant dwelling on old events: 1. in that they cannot ever be lived down; 2. they undermine what I try to say and do in the present; and 3. as though they define me once and for always. This is because there is no sacramental confession, and also because, just as Jaybird, notes, one assumes that the piety is simply a hypocritical mask.
March 4, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Excellent post. This is the doctrine that turned on me, as well. I, as a Calvinist, really started questioning Justification by Faith Alone and the Catholic understanding of Original Sin really turned the tide for me.
March 5, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Hi Jaybird,
Way back in the dial-up BBS days, I repeated engaged James White in conversation. I found it to be a fruitless exercise then. Since that time (some 15+ years ago?) I have found that he has, if anything, become more reactionary (and anti-Catholic) than he was before.
Do you suppose that his sister’s rather public conversion to Catholicism might have something to do with that? :-)
March 5, 2008 at 8:12 pm
“Way back in the dial-up BBS days, I repeated engaged James White in conversation. I found it to be a fruitless exercise then. Since that time (some 15+ years ago?) I have found that he has, if anything, become more reactionary (and anti-Catholic) than he was before.
Do you suppose that his sister’s rather public conversion to Catholicism might have something to do with that? :-) “
Yes & Yes!
White is at the top of the game when it comes to semi-respectable and near-educated looking “anti-Romanism”… I think he is too well invested and has too large a cult or personality to moderate his views let alone admit he was wrong about anything.
Prayers to Saint Paul that he get knocked off his horse. I have said for years everyone who debates him would do FAR BETTER to have a Mass said for him… Third world priests need the stipends, he needs the prayers, and debating him is like wrestling a pig - you both get muddy but the pig loves it.
He gets far more column inches and respect than he deserves.
Interesting that David Z was debating him well before he had become Catholic. That is heartening news.
March 5, 2008 at 11:35 pm
I like your thought about having Masses said for him! What a good idea! (I’ll bet his sister may well be!)
Yes, years ago, before I came into the Church I was (as a good priest friend described) 99 and 44/100 “nearly there” for decades!
I debated regularly on the old FidoNet BBS systems under the pseudonym Peter Abelard. (Please don’t laugh!) What was funny was the number of self-proclaimed Church History experts that never picked up the reference! (Another friend posted as Alex Cyril!)
April 6, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Hello all. Don’t shoot me; I’m a protestant. It is interesting to read everyone’s own views and experiences. I have been brought up in British Pentecostal circles and have encountered many unusual doctrines and practices along the way. I find it hard to believe that once a person is “saved” he (or she) always is no matter what they do. So, I do not believe that doctrine. I am sorry that at least one of you was regarded as never being a Christian because of the “predestination” doctrine, I am afraid that that is another of the doctrines I do not ascribe to.
I would like to add my tuppence to the debate. There are many things which we come across in this world which God has done for us, will do for us, and asks us to do. We do what we can to do what it is he has asked us to do, the ways he asks us to live. We never get it 100% right but we do what we can. Even Paul said “why do I do the things I don’t want to do and the things I do I don’t”. “Saint” Paul fell short. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. We have a duty to do what we can to live up to God’s will for our lives but I believe that so many people beat themselves up over a standard of life that they can never reach. People who truly love God and are so annoyed and sad and emotionally crippled because they never reach that pinnacle of holiness. Jesus said that he came to bring life, and life more abundant. That’s life and then more of it.
Surely Jesus took the curse of original sin when he died in our place. When we submit to God and accept what was done for us, repent of our sin (as the Biblie says “all have sinned…”) and be baptised we are going through the process of doing God’s will in our lives for (probably) the first time and in doing so we are saved. I am sorry if the word “saved” sounds peculiar, I do not like the popular US usage eg. “Are you saved?”, because it is used as a label for someone and not the original use. “What must I do to be saved?” “Repent and be baptised”.
Whatever view someone holds on this matter, surely it is not the case of how or why it is done but the case of “God has saved me”.
How do you know what a man is? By how he speaks and acts. Mel Gibson does good things and he has done bad things. They all make up who he is. I do good and bad (though I have never been drunk and never been drunk driving and never hurled anti-semitic abuse… at a police officer), we all do but when all is said and done (literally) God will be the one who judges us.
We have our doctrinal differences but if we serve the same God, and we serve him as best we can then what is the point of arguing over points that are never certain?
Having said that I just have to ask, why do you pray to Saints? simple sinner said,”Prayers to Saint Paul that he get knocked off his horse.”. Surely you cannot speak to someone who has died as this would be like Saul trying to speak to Samuel.
Can I also ask what you think about the recent declaration from the Vatican that the Church of Rome is the one true church? I myself find it quite laughable that many Roman Catholics believe that it is what was spoken by Jesus when he said to Peter “Upon this rock I will build my church”. Sure, it is possible that Peter founded Christianity in Rome but he went to lots of other places also, just as Paul did, and over the years that followed the church there certainly went off on a different course, making compromises with what they were taught with the Pagans they were trying to convert.
Well, I hope you still have your eyes open after reading this, sorry about the waffle!
April 7, 2008 at 10:33 am
Hi Dave.
Thanks for dropping by. Here’s a quick reply to your question about praying to saints, but I’m sure if you go to the various Catholic websites, you will find a more thorough answer. What I’ll put here is not, in my mind, the “usual” answer. I THINK, if I recall correctly, my source is one of Pope Benedict’s encyclicals on charity and hope (probably the charity one). Let me know if you need a link to it.
Okay..the two big commandments…love God and love each other. Right? Right. That seems plain enough while we’re here on earth. But I think we have this notion that when we go to heaven, we just sort of stare at God. Others are around us staring at God, but we don’t look around. We just stare at God. (This at least was my idea).
God clearly never changes. He loves us and he wants us to love each other. He could have a direct relationship with us, but he chose to have us participate in his redemption. We show Christ to each other. We feed the poor, comfort the afflicted….bring God to them. This is our mission.
So again, when we die, does God change the rules for us? No. God’s truths are eternal. Therefore, those who are in heaven still, for all eternity, are called to love God and love each other. And to give of themselves…just as Jesus does. And they do that, as our friends, by praying for us.
We Christians are the family of God. The family does not consist of those living on earth at any given time. It is the WHOLE family of God. Those who have gone before me are as much a part of my family as you are. On earth, we’re called the church militant. In heaven, they’re the church triumphant. As Hebrews 12 says, those in heaven are a cloud of witnesses, cheering us on to the finish line. They still care. They still participate. Because I am connected to them.
Since becoming Catholic, I rarely suffer from loneliness anymore. I have so many good friends in heaven, people I’ve really connected with. They lived such great lives, and I ask for them to pray for me. And fortunately for me, they really do.
Not the most coherent response, but I need to run. I’ll try to write more later.
God bless!
April 9, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Thank you for your reply Jaybird.
It seems like a great idea but I don’t see any basis in Scripture to believe it to be so. Sure, We don’t just stare at God in heaven but, truly, we aren’t told alot about what does, or will go on there.
Also, God is omniscient but humans aren’t, so how could a saint hear us, particularly if he/she was a popular saint and was prayed to by thousands at a time, because, as you know, that would just be a garbled nonsense to me and you.
I’m not expecting you to have the answers; we can all think about it and come up with a possible explanation. I just want you to see if it could be a doctrine without scriptural back-up or not. I would be interested to see if there is some basis in scripture that I have missed or mis-interpreted.
Once again, thanks for the reply.