When I first became Catholic in 2004, I hung around various Paltalk rooms, and one thing I noticed was that some Catholics seemed to talk more about apparitions than anything else, almost to the point that any outsider would think that our faith was all about apparitions. One issue that would always come up would be Medjugorje, with many Catholics swearing it was real and swearing how deeply it touched their faith. Generally I have been suspicious of Medjugorje, and two recent blog posts have made me even more suspicious. I suggest you read them, as they both point out that the apparitions at Medjugorje seem to have resulted from a dispute between the local bishop and the Franciscans in the area.
The American Catholic has a good post called Medjugorje: Hoax from the Beginning, which is worth reading, and provides some insight into some of the suspicious activities surrounding Medjugorje.
A Conservative Blog For Peace also has a great post on the issue, which ultimately reminds us that in Catholic ecclesiology the bishop calls the shots.
If you believe Medjuggorje has edified your faith, then I am glad, and I am not trying to take that away from you. However, I think that the way this apparition has unfolded and been handled has been less than Catholic.
David Bennett
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Donal Foley’s book ” Understanding Medjugorje ” is your best bet! Spoken by someone who has been to M FIVE times!
I have also been to Medjugorje five times. I do not agree with Donal Foley. However, it is true to say that some mistakes have been made. These mistakes are on both sides of the argument, but that should not make us negative about the apparitions or the messages themselves. I have seen some bad things there, but people are not perfect, be they Francisacan priests or – may I say- bishops! I saw evidence of satan’s presence. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? if it were not genuine would the enemy bother with it? I think not (I am an exorcist).
My own experiences there push me in the direction of saying it is genuine. There are other reasons. We have to be as rational as we can be, and there are good, sound reasons for believing the visionaries. After all, they have been studied by one of the leading experts in Europe on psychological fraud. He is not a Christian. He declared that in his scientific opinion they are not lying. There is no psychological illness in them and no immorality. have they made mistakes? Why not? Having apparitions does not make someone perfect just like that, and if you want to to see how some people have struggled even after seeing heavenly visions, read the story of the visionaries of La Salette, and note also, how, because of his lack of teeth and the boy visionary’s inability to understand the Cure D’Ars, a crucial mistake was made by St. John Vianney about the visions.
I saw some things at Medjugorje, and not only so-called miraculous things. I saw the workings of grace. People’s lives have changed – many people’s lives. In the end we have to stick to the Bibilical proof and look at the fruits. They are there for those who want to look.
Father Abberton,
There is no mistake that you witnessed some truly wonderful experiences at Medjugorje, but that is a testament to God making something good out of a bad situation.
The fact that there are many theological errors, among many other mistakes, is just the tip of the ice berg.
To all,
I am aware that many people have experienced positive things from Medjugorje, and officially, I will call myself on the fence about the apparition (I will defer judgment to the Church on this). But, like I said in this post, I see a lot about the whole thing that bothers me.
My own take is…better to mostly ignore apparitions. The Lord has given us His “Last Great Word” to Mankind in Jesus Christ, His Son, in the canonized Scripture, and in the Magisterium of the Church. For myself, I can’t imagine what any apparition could add to that. But, that’s just me.
Dear Tito,
You said, “many theological errors”. Yet Hans Urs Von Balthasar, one of the greatest of modern theologians, found none, neither has Rene Laurentin nor several others. What are these “many errors” you mention?
As for God making “good out of a bad situation”, this is actually a theological error. If we have no way of judging these things then how are we going to decide? The normal means must be applied, and they have been. All the tests on the visionaries have shown no lying, no mental illness etc. The original verdict of the Bishop of Mostar (Bishop Franic) came after Our Lady was reported to have commented that he had overreacted regarding the case of two suspended Franciscan priests. It was this that first caused his negative reaction saying, “Our Lady would not criticise a bishop”. This begs a lot of questions.
The Archbishop and chairman of the Yugoslavs Bishops’ conference at that time, Archbishop Zanic disagreed with his fellow bishop and actually complained to Rome about him. All this is well-known. The comment about God making good out of a bad situation comes nowhere near describing what has gone on – or is going on – there, and is, itself, theologically lazy, at best.
I am waiting to see what happens next, but I do not believe that a bad situation, as you call it, would have produced such grace. To suggest that God would allow such a thing is to suggest that the Holy Spirit is responsible for confusion, and that cannot be. The confusion there is caused by satan and by human weakness, not by God.
Dear Father Abberton,
When the Virgin Mary says that all that are in Heaven have both their body and soul with them, that is a serious theological error.
my family and i watched the sun spin at medjugorge in july 2009 – 5 of us watched this phenomena for more than 1/2 hr. Want to see the sun spin – contact me.
Archbishop Franic was in Split, Bishop Zanic was in Mostar, and Cardinal Kuharic of Zagreb led the Bishops Conference.
I don’t need to see the sun spin for 1/2 an hour to believe in God.
I go to Eucharistic adoration and attend Mass each Sunday to be witness to this miracle.
I practice my faith, along with many other parishioners, because I know and love God.
With the money you spent to fly to Medjugorje to view a supernatural phenomenon you could have easily driven or walk to your nearest parish to see something even more amazing… Jesus in the Eucharist. That money could have been used to feed the hungry or house the homeless.
-contact me if you need directions to your nearest parish.
I’m sorry I came back late to this. Regarding Archbishop Franic’s status as chairman of the Yugoslavs bishops, I cannot say (without looking it up) when this happened, but if my memory serves me correctly, it did. As regards the supposed “serious theological error” about body and souls being in heaven, this has to be judged in the light of the mystery of time (see St. Augustine) and the question we are all allowed to ponder regarding the connection between “now” (in our experience) and “now” in Heaven. This matter is deeply profound and a great mystery. To dismiss it as a “theological error” is a mistake. No theologian investigating Medjugorje has judged it to be so – because it is not. What happened to the other errors you mentioned?
Have I misunderstood but didn’t the “Lady” of Medjugorje also teach Universalism? THAT, if so, IS a serious error.
Dear Father Abberton,
If you would bother to go to the link that Per Christum linked to you would find all the evidence you need. I’m not going to write my entire article again.
You are in serious error about body and souls in Heaven.
What diocese do you serve in?
Dear Tito,
I have looked at the article. I would like to know why you insist that I am in error. Could you please explain?
If you are arguing that souls and bodies are separated at death, you are right – there is no argument. If you are interpreting the reported comments (of Our Lady?)to mean that bodies and souls are united at the point of death (in our time reference), I question your interpretation. How do you know that is what it means? I can read it another way – and I do.
My comment above was on another line, namely that in speaking of earth “now” and Heaven “now” we are not speaking of a uniform experience of time. If there is any experience of time in Heaven, it is certainly not what we experience on earth. I was pointing out that it may be permissable to speak of something in our future as already realised in Heaven. I admit that this is heady stuff, but it is the kind of thing St. Augustine was wondering about centuries ago, and it is certainly not heretical, erroneous or bad theology to speculate on this.
Fr John Abberton writes:
“I would like to know why you insist that I am in error. Could you please explain?”
Sorry for being so late catching up with this one, but since Tito has not responded, allow me. There is a delicious irony here! Fr John Abberton is ‘the’ Catholic apologist for the occult ‘seer’ Vassula Ryden. Yes, there’s only one Catholic priest in the UK who speaks up for TLIG – just do a Google search and you’ll see what I mean. As such, Abberton is completely ignoring the CDF’s instruction on Catholics keeping a distance from this woman and her dangerous ‘ecumenical’ sect.
So, Father Abberton, that is why you are in error. Massive error. And what does your bishop think of you going on the TLIG occult jamboree? It was the TLIG luxury cruise that the disgraced Franciscan priest from Medjugorje (‘Majorforgery’) was supposed to join last summer, wasn’t it? But ‘unforeseen circumstances’ of a major scandal prevented him joining you all. It’s all connected you see, folks.
Stand back from these vipers and hold to Catholic tradition: that’s what the Magisterium is for.
Father Rabit,
I thought my answer was sufficient enough, that’s why I didn’t respond to Father John Abberton.
Like many modernists, Father Abberton thinks by continuing to give the same answer and then asking the same question he believes he’s “dialogueing”.
He represents what Pope Paul VI called the “smoke of satan” that has entered the Church.
Soon this too will pass and the “Spirit of Vatican II” will die with the last dissenting priest.
Yes, Tito, I see what you mean. Abberton seems to take his Vassula Heresy Roadshow on a tour of the blogs. He is clearly using the blogosphere as a way to get publicity for Vassula and her occult writings. That shouldn’t be necessary, as it is a multi-million dollar enterprise funded by US publishing interests, and they could surely afford proper advertising? Or is it that the devil is quietly at work in the Church and wants to do it through muddle and confusion as usual…? Um, let me guess. :-)
We need full cooperation between churches to oppose this bunch, as they are operating with contempt, under the banner of ‘ecumenism’. Only proper joint church opposition will be effective.
Sorry but this is a bunch of rubbish!
TLIG is NOT a multimillion dollar enterprise run by an American publishing firm. I suppose he is referring to “Trinity”. He is out of date on this one. As for the jibe about the “occult jamboree” this is also rubbish. Where is the evidence? Understand the word EVIDENCE? There are no occult connections with Vassula or TLIG. Also, my original point to Tito was based on Augustine’s writings. Where does the word “Modernist” come in? Please explain. These, insults, jibes, slogans prove nothing except that you cannot operate in a Christian manner. That is something more fundamental than your bad manners and inability to dialogue.
Father Abberton,
How many times am I suppose to answer the same question asked with different words?
Way to go. Its sad to see priests like that though.
THere is one thing you might be interested in. Surely you have heard of Garabandal apparitions. In my opinion these seem quite legitimate, but do not have approval or condemnation from the Church yet.
St. Padre Pio believed in them though. You should check out the story, but be careful for those people who think Garabandal and Medjugore go hand in hand. THIS IS REDICULOUS.
Keep up fighting for the truth.
The end of the world is coming,
Christian
Dear Tito,
In the past you have suggested that I am not orthodox. I was only discussing with you another way of reading something that you suggested was an “erroneous” message from Medjugorje. To be honest with you I don’t even know if your quoting of that “message” was correct. I did not check it. I only wanted to show you that there are legitimate ways of reading such things differently, and I quoted St. Augustine. In his “Confessions” he has a highly interesting section on Time, and I think we are allowed to meditate on the mystery of time and eternity and it was in that context that I was discussing – or attempting it – with you. You have called me a “Modernist”. I asked you why. You do not know me and I do not know you. I have seen your blog and I have great respect for what you are trying to do. We obviously disagree on Medjugorje. I understand your concern about this, but because we disagree is no reason to call each other names or make accusations. I have not done this with you. Why do you do it to me? That was all I asked. I am happy to close this correspondence on a friendly basis. I sincerely wish you well.
I’ve been to Medjugorje and can tell you after much reflection that Our Lady is not appearing there. Are things happening? Yes, while there I did see the sun pulsate and cast of hues of pink and blue. I also smelled roses during Ivan’s “apparition.” But, the devil has a lot of power and one of those powers is deception. In fact, a priest who was staying with my group did NOT smell roses when I did and he was sitting close to me during the “apparition.” The so-called “seers” of Medjugorje are everything St. Bernadette of Lourdes and Sister Lucia of Fatima were not. They live in McMansions while their neighbors live in intense poverty. Ivan preaches to pilgrims about fasting on bread and water but he obviously isn’t missing any meals nor is he missing an opportunity for paid speaking engagements, fine clothes and other celebrity status symbols. Jackov is as arrogant as they come and Mirjana does not dress like someone who has seen the Blessed Virgin with her low-cut blouses, dyed hair and hunky bodyguards. And, then of course, there are the fruits of Medjugorje that you don’t read about enough in the press: disobedience, sex scandals, ex-communications, etc. If you want to get close to Our Lady, give her the respect She deserves and visit Lourdes, Guadelupe, Fatima, La Salette or any other approved apparition site.
Fr. Abberton’s comment on October 6, 2009, at 6:44 pm demonstrates that he knows little of the facts of the Medjugorje case; he is confused about the identities of Zanic, Franic, and Kuharic. So despite his five trips to Medjugorje, I suspect he is ill-informed in the case of Medjugorje events.
Another article on this issue
http://danpatrascu.eu/?p=809
I personaly have resieved many wounderfull graces as a direct result of our ladys apparitions and the whole wounderfull medjugorje experience, our lady has helped me forward in my faith and her messages have given me a greater understanding of Gods endless love for each one of us his children, our lady of medjugorge messages have allways been messages of, allways putting our full trust in God to never lose hope, to regularely pray and fast, we are reminded to say the rosary, and encouraged to live our faith every moment of our life. All these are weapons to defeat saton, and certainly do not promote him, our lady is titled, Queen of peace, and from the beginning of the apparitions in 1981, our lady stressed the need for peace, our lady also stated the impending dangers in that country and the need to continuously pray for lasting peace foretelling of the conflict that sadly, took place in that country. our lady of medjugorje is continually leading us her children to her son, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, regularely reminding us of Jesus in the blessed sacrament of the euchorist, stating if it is a choise for any of us her children between events to do with our lady and receiving Jesus christ her son in the euchorist in holy mass, we are to allways put Jesus first, our lady also stated when pilgrims commented to the visionarys how priverlaged they were to recieve these graces,our lady of medjugorje said through the visionarys that our lady is allways closest to every soul who received her son our lord and savior Jesus christ in the euchorist, more closer than any visionary could experience, in an apparition, because the sacred heart of Jesus and the immaculate heart of mary are perfectly united in there love for each other. I could say so much about all the wounderfull experiences that one experiences there,the constant feeling of peace and holyness from the moment one arrives there,wounderfull,powerfull benedictions, experiences, of a supernatural nature involving the sun,such as seeing the host clearly in the centre of the sun without hurting the eyes, the word peace in there own language that appeared within the clouds over St James church for all to see in the early days of the apperitions. In my honest oppinion i firmy believe the real danger is not weather or not our lady of medjugorje is truly appearing in medjugorje which i truly believe she is but that so many souls who clearly have never been there are crediting the devil with abbilitys that only God has,supernatural graces involving the sun ,similar to Fatima, only God is omnipotent and omnicient.The devil can only do what God permits him to do . These apperitions have been taking place for 29 years this month the longest period in history,as far as i know, and there is no sign as yet of there compleation,what with all the wounderfull conversions that have taken place during that time,peoples lives have been changed for the better I will end know just by saying. I am a dedicated catholic, i have given you all my testimony just as it is, i have absolutely no reason to lie or exagerate, i believe i am a perfectly rational human being,my experiences were not hallusinations vivid dreams or anything else other than what i have said they were, of corse everybody has equal right to believe or disbelieve in these said apperitions,and i sincerely promise i will fully abide by whatever desition the vatican may make. All i ask to those who dont believe the apperitions of our lady of medjugorje are true,please as a brother in faith i ask you dont attack and condemn, clearly judjment has not been made and therefore if they were declared true,as i sincerely believe they will be,those who attacked would have been declaring evil,what is holy, a sin against the holy spirit,it is better to hold your thoughts…YOURS IN CHRIST…FRED.
I can see why people are tempted to believe in the likes of Lourdes, Fatima , Medjugorje etc Life is hard and us fragile human beings are desperate for some tangible connection to God. Alas this ‘connection’ will not be found via ‘visionaries’ For the love of God I think we each have a responsibilito sit back and ask ‘Did this really happen?’ No I do not beleive Mary has an extensive wardrobe and deigns to attend to such detail as putting a rose on her foot (as Bernadette claimed at Lourdes) before descending on this world
I am much more interested in the visionaries propensity to cultivate their lies to entice gullible individuals into believing that Mary occasionally visits earth without actually bothering to leave any proof of her visits behind
I understand that one of the visionaries claimed that she thought Mary was about to drop the infant jesus during one of the ‘apparitions’ and that Mary said that Father Vlasic is a ‘living saint.’ Father Vlasic has since been investigated and condemned by the catholic church.
The queen of heaven therefore appears to be not only clumsy but also makes mistakes. Its just silly isnt it? wake up people!
Life is hard and yes I can see there is a certain comfort in believing that Mary visits the earth to ‘check in’ as it were on behalf of God. When I was young I believed in Santa Claus and fairies but there comes a time in your life when you really need to grow up.
I dont believe Mary has appeared to anyone EVER.
Its silly to think otherwise
We are supposed to believe that Mary has now appeared to the ;visionaries’ at Medjugorje over 40,000 times now. Get a grip people!
Actually having since re-reading my comments I now realise that Mary has infact appeared at Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugorje, Garabandal etc now I must go as i have a flying saucer to catch with Elvis!
Love and hugs
Stephen
Stephen,
I do not know wether you are a catholic or not. I am guessing that you are not. I agree with you and my opinion is that Medjugorje is the work of the devil. But don’t you dare critisize Our Lady of Lourdes.
The spiritual world exists. As a Catholic we believe that appartitions can come from God, but they can also be deceptions of the devil.
How can you explain the undemniablt miracle of fatima witnessed by 70,000 men women and children, many of which were enemies of the Church and still testified to the validity.
Stephen, If you are a Catholic, then you definately have to believe in Our Lady of Lourdes and Fatima.
O and thats “SAINT BERNADETTE” not Bernadette.
There is one thing we both agree on and that is that Medjugore is not from God. Other than that there seems to be not much.
Love and Hugs,
Christian